I know there’s so many women out there that are so focused on, ” What can I do to make money? how do I choose the thing?” Blah, blah, blah. And it’s just like, If you’re not doing something that you love and that lights you up, it is so hard.

You might as well go back to your job, this is not for the faint of heart.

Are you a female business owner frustrated with battling the algorithm and looking for growth strategies that don’t involve awkwardly pointing or dancing online or throwing cash at paid ads? Welcome to the Email Growth Show. I’m your host, Kylie Kelly, visibility and email marketing strategist. I grew my email list from zero to almost 10,000 subscribers in less than two years, and the same is possible for you, too.

Are you ready to build your email list and start making more money in your online business? Let’s head into today’s episode.

So for everyone tuning in, we are recording this to use on both of our podcasts. Like, talk about working smarter and not harder. I’m here for it. I’m so

excited. Work smarter. Me too. Oh my gosh. Okay. [00:01:00] So this is the first time we’ve ever hosted a podcast episode where we’re gonna use it for two different c- podcasts.

So my name’s Mira, for those of you who don’t know me. I run the Ambitious Mom Movement, where I help ambitious moms build businesses that light them up, still give them the, time freedom and the flexibility and the fulfillment that they really want. And I always talk about finding your fire first, so you can b- build your empire around that.

Mm-hmm. Kylie, go for it.

So I’m Kylie Kelly, and I help women grow their email lists without social media, ’cause I believe that, you know, we need to own our audience. We need to be in control of the platforms that we build on, and I’m a big believer that we don’t own our social media.

So email is where So yeah, that’s what I help people do.

I love it. Okay, so do we even remember how we know each other?

It’s been a few years I don’t even know when. right … 2022, 2023, something like that probably.

It was right around the time when Rat was diagnosed, so that was five years ago. maybe even six years ago. Something like that. Isn’t that crazy? Wow. Oh, my God.

I love that.

I love that so much.

You know, I wanted to actually open this, our conversation with, how to be ambitious and still walk through real hard things in your life, [00:02:00] because you have been through a heap load of stuff and it seems like every time I talk to you, you’re like, “Yeah, the kids got lice, and now my husband has shingles.”

And I’m like, “Well, mine has some kind of a weird spinal cord injury, and my son has brain cancer.” And, you know, like, we’re just always walking through really hard things.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. But it’s almost like we have these amazing businesses, and we chose to build them because it’s almost like a holiday the gum show that is our lives sometimes.

I think that’s, what I would love to start with, just because I know there’s so many women out there that are so focused on, ” What can I do to make money? how do I choose the thing?” Blah, blah, blah. And it’s just like, well, let me just help you out with that one. If you’re not doing something that you love and that lights you up, it is so hard.

You might as well go back to your job, you know? Mm … this is not for the faint of heart. And I talked about this today on Reel. It’s just like diamonds are forged under pressure for a reason, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, we have to step up over, and over, and over. And dealing with kids, and dealing with life, and dealing with all the things while trying to build a business, we deserve, like, little hero cookies,

100%. And I think, you know, it’s so interesting ’cause I, I got an email this morning from my [00:03:00] old business coach, and it… the whole point of the email, her dad had passed away, and so she was like, know, “The, the beauty of a business, that you can walk away from and deal with life.” And I was like, it’s so true, but then also, I kind of like the other way.

It’s also my distraction. So, like, when I’m going through hard things, or when shit hits the fan, and working in my business is the distraction I need so I don’t lose myself in the drama that is life. Like, I just… I need the time to even just, like, work on something for me- So that I can still show up and be, the best version of myself in hard seasons, especially in hard seasons.

So like I get, I get the point of like having the flexibility when you do need to go and deal with stuff, and your capacity might change and whatnot. but yeah, for me it’s a distraction. Like, I need it. It’s like part of my identity, right? Yeah. I can’t imagine not enjoying that or not having that. I just don’t even know.

I’d be so miserable, Mara. Like, I don’t even know how I would how I would handle everything if I didn’t have that.

How funny is that? That’s our vacation from our lives is to go to work in our businesses. Right? And, I think it’s Alex Charfen that always talks about this, but it’s just like if [00:04:00] we’re not, as entrepreneurs, if we’re not building and creating and doing something, we feel like we’re dying.

Mm-hmm. Like, we don’t feel like we’re standing still. We actually actively feel like we’re dying. Mm-hmm. And so I think when we’re moms and we get pulled off course all the time by life and kids and this and that, I mean, we’re always gonna show up for anybody that we love, right? Mm-hmm. But also it causes this weird frustration if you can’t get back to the thing that you love to do too.

Mm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think this is where the flexibility piece and, like, the, giving yourself grace piece comes into it. like full disclosure, like I’m pivoting my, as you know, I’m pivoting my business model at the moment.

Like, I used to be very much high touch. I moved into high ticket the last couple years where, I loved it, right? Like, I loved holding women and really helping them go deep with them in their business. absolutely loved it, but my capacity shifted, right? Like, my mother-in-law’s got stage four cancer, plus then the kids, the shingles, all the things you mentioned. Yeah. It’s like, well, actually I, I just don’t have space to hold the depth that I did for my clients a few years ago, or even just 12 months ago. So pivoting into more of a, [00:05:00] digital product, courses, where the only problem then I need to solve is the traffic piece, right?

And I’m good at traffic. So I was like, “Okay, you know, things have changed. Let’s just pivot the business model a bit so that that way I can still be doing something that I love otherwise, the resentment and the frustration starts to build when your capacity changes. So I think it’s that piece as well of going like, “Well, what do I need in this season of life to still be able to be happy and be me and feel alive and do what I love?”

Yeah, I like that a lot. I think that that’s such a, such a blessing. I mean, when you come into the online space, you really think there’s a right way to do it, and there really isn’t. And I think the longer you’re in it, the, the more you realize that, like, there is, your way is actually the best way.

Mm-hmm. And that you have the option to pivot anytime you want. And I also think that you might take a little bit of a pay cut in the meantime, which is fine. But also, I feel like when you’re in a corporate or a career space and you have those big, you know, capacity constraints with what’s happening in real life, you’re just running into nonstop guilt.

And the fact that we have the ability to pivot into [00:06:00] something that makes more sense for us is just, like, what a f- do you swear on your podcast? I swear on my podcast. Fucking blessing.

Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Oh my gosh, absolutely. That’s

been my life. It really is.

Mm, like you mentioned, the financial piece.

It’s the trust then, I think. And this comes with time and experience, right? But I think then the more experience you get, the more you trust yourself to figure it out, or that the money will come. Whereas if I had have pivoted my business- At the start of my journey as I am now, I’d be freaking the fuck out.

Like, oh my God, I’ve cut all these high-ticket clients, and now how, how is this gonna work? Like, but I’m like, well, hang on, I know that if I’m following what feels right for me, more like to your point, like what, lights me up, what I feel is right in my gut to do, the money will come.

It’ll figure itself out. Yeah, it might be a bit tight for a little bit. I might have to cut some expenses or like, you know, but it always figures itself out. That’s- We just have to trust ourselves in the moves that we’re making.

Biggest lessons that I’ve learned lately is just, the tighter you try to squeeze on the expectation for a [00:07:00] timeline for results- Mm-hmm

the more you push them away. And that sounds really easy to say down the road compared to when you’re kind of, like, looking up at, like, “I need to make money.” But at the same time, the more you get into the, “I need to make money,” like get into the excitement, let that fuel you to go take action, but don’t let that be the thing that’s running under, like the undercurrent under everything that you do because you’re gonna miss out on everything.

You’re gonna look at what everyone else is doing around you and how somebody else is converting, how they’re creating content, how they’re putting their offers together, and then you lose yourself completely in the process. And one day you wake up and you’re just like, “I don’t even know what I’m selling anymore.”

Mm-hmm.

I literally just went through that whole season and I was just like, “Fuck that. I’m going back to what I love, what I know, what happens in my actual spaces, and I don’t give a shit if somebody…” ‘Cause so many coaches have told me over the years, “I don’t think you should, you know, talk about finding your fire out front.”

And I’m like, “That’s the cornerstone of my whole business.” Mm-hmm. If you are not going to figure out what lights you up, then I don’t know how to help you.

Mm-hmm.

Because it’s the thing that makes the biggest difference with all of my clients is, nailing down what it is that actually lights them up because we come out of [00:08:00] society, we’re raised in it no matter how hard our parents try not to raise us this way, but we follow the shoulds.

Should be this, should do this. This is what success looks like. This is what you have to do. This is how you have to show your math work in grade four, otherwise you don’t get the problem right even if you got the right answer. Like, what kind of bullshit is that? You know what I mean? And then we come out into the real world and we have to follow the exact steps that our bosses give us, and then we have the balls to jump into the online space where there is no rules.

Like, there are no rules. This is the wild, wild west, and then we’re like, “Ah, we’re gonna pay somebody to tell us what to do and to shortcut this process and to give us the answers.” But then in the process we lose ourselves in it. Mm-hmm. And you didn’t start a business to be told what to do. You started a business to build success your own way, and then you forgot about that part.

Mic drop right there. Let’s talk to the person that… ‘Cause we’ve all done that, right? We’ve all invested in… And I love investing in programs. I’m not in one at the moment.

I know you’re in one at the moment. But, like, I think the thing that changed for me as I’ve gotten more, you know, runs, more goes at this, as I’m becoming more experienced, is actually going like, “Huh, even if what [00:09:00] I thought I was gonna get out of this program isn’t what I’m getting, what can I take from it?

What’s a little nugget I can take?” And then knowing that’s enough. Going, “Okay, good. I feel, I feel good. I’ve gotten what I needed. That must be what I, was meant for me.” Like, I used to be that person, be like, “Oh my gosh, I’ve got two weeks left. I need to binge these 10 videos, that even they don’t apply to me and right where I am, I need to get this information or I’ve wasted my money.”

Like, that whole, like, scarcity, must squeeze every last bit out of this kind of feeling. And again, it doesn’t serve us, right? So what would you say? What would you say to the woman that’s listening, that maybe she’s invested in something, maybe she’s lost her way a bit. She’s following the coach, she’s doing what they say.

It’s not working the way she thought it would. What would you say to her?

I would say, listen, I spent $23,000, one of my very first investments, on a super high-level mastermind, and I didn’t get anywhere with it, and I didn’t get anything that I was hoping to get out of it. But what I did get was how I did not want to pull people into a, container, how I did not wanna lead people inside the space, how I wanted to lead with integrity, and how I would [00:10:00] never sell the way that that person sold.

I don’t even know how to say it. I would never bait and switch people. I would never boast that I had all these crazy results even though behind closed doors 85% of the people were gone in the first two months of a year-long program. I mean, it was the best lesson I could have ever paid for to show me exactly who I was, because I was not any of that.

Mm-hmm.

And so sometimes when you feel… This is something that one of my clients brought up the other day. She’s like, ” I was so coach hurt before I came in. You know, I felt like I would go to these calls,” you know, this is… She wasn’t in th- this program that I’m talking about, but she’s like, “I’d go to the calls and I almost felt like, you know, you’re kind of like h- have an adrenaline rush, like you’re supposed to make the maximum of the three minutes of airtime that you get with the coach on the call or whatever, and then you’d always leave the call more confused than when you got there and whatever.”

And she just called it coach hurt. And I thought, you know- Mm … I think that that is very common. So I feel like if you have somebody that’s like right now they’re just like, “I paid all this money, I’m in this space, I’m not getting what I wanted,” I mean, it’s the hardest lesson in the world, but sometimes you pay for the things that you never [00:11:00] expect, and sometimes that’s just I would never run a freaking space like this.

Mm. And that is worth $23,000.

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

To me now looking back, at the time I was like so hurt by it. I was so disappointed. I was deflated. I stayed all the way through to the end ‘ cause I really… I always look for the good in people. I got my mom in me. She always looks for the good in everybody.

and my dad at the time was like, “What is… This is a con artist.” And I was like, “No, Dad, you don’t understand.” But then by the end I was like, “No, yeah, no.” But also I think- Sometimes when you have enough strategy programs, I’m gonna call them strategy programs, that you’ve been in and that you’ve invested in, and f- still feel like you’re not getting where you wanna go, sometimes you have to look back and say, “Okay, the common denominator here is me, not 13 different people who didn’t deliver for me.

The common denominator is me. What am I doing over and over and over that is causing me to not follow through or to not execute?” Or I actually find that a lot of the time we’ll jump ahead to, like, scaling-type activities before we’ve even built the base. Mm. And the base to me is, like, who [00:12:00] are you?

What do you actually wanna do? Who do you actually really wanna show up and help? Because there has to be an energetic exchange, I call it the X factor. You gotta be charging somebody a certain amount that’s gonna make you wanna show up full tilt as hard as you can and serve that person. You gotta make it expensive enough that that person’s gonna also meet you at that X spot and be like, “I’m all in.”

and it’s not about I’m gonna squeeze this value. It’s like I’m going to prove to myself that I am gonna show up and get this done this time. Mm. And when you can find that little magic X spot, I feel like that’s the best. So if you feel like you’re not getting something out of a program right now, sometimes you’ve gotta go hire a separate coach or mentor, this is my experience- just to help you get the piece of clarity that you’re missing, because not everybody has that skill. Mm. everybody could teach you a framework that they’ve used, but maybe not how to find the leak in yours or the bottleneck in what’s going on in your head. I always say most of the real work in online business is done between the pipes.

Mm … strategy is literally 10 or 20%. Anybody can follow steps.

Yeah.

But it’s how do you lead yourself through the failures? How do you lead yourself through the what’s not working? [00:13:00] How do you lead yourself through the comments that people that are well-meaning and love you make in your life? I mean, there’s so many different aspects to it that we never saw coming, I think.

and how you lead yourself through that shit.

That’s the real test. And how do you lead yourself through investments where you didn’t get where you wanna go?

And sometimes you gotta be really honest about whether that was, the program that didn’t deliver on a promise, or was it something else that you were doing, and you gotta just own that shit.

Oh, I love that, Mara. Yes. I think that that’s the whole thing, right? It’s like at every stage in business, whether somebody’s listening and they’re just getting started, or they’ve been in it a few years, or they are at the point where they’re scaling or whatever, at every step there’s…

What’s that whole thing? Like, new level, new devil. Like, there’s always something else- Yeah … to break through or other shit in life that happens, or there’s always stuff. So I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. It’s like, ‘ s- all the strategies work, like we said at the beginning. All the strategies work, all the platforms work, da, da, da, da.

It’s what works for you and how you lead yourself through the ceilings, the shit, the other stuff the e- expectations that fall flat, like the disappointments, the whatever, the hard, how you lead yourself through that that makes all the [00:14:00] difference. so I love that you shared that. I think that’s, so valuable.

I think also a lot of the time we work with very smart, like, highly intelligent, intellectual women.

Mm-hmm.

And we tend to overcomplicate the shit out of everything, ’cause it’s almost like- … it needs to be complex for me to feel like- You’re

talking about me right now. Are you talking about me?

Well, it’s true.

Like, ChatGPT called me out on that the other day. It was just like, the reason that you feel like you can’t just say this is because you feel like this needs to be, like, way more complex, and it needs to be deeper and whatever. And then as a result, everybody just cruises right on by, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Like, messaging out front needs to be you, if you can anchor yourself… I talk about anchors all the time ’cause ambitious mom need anchors. We get pulled off course all the time. You gotta have something holding you on track towards that North Star that you’re heading towards at sea, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

and I feel like if we’re not, super clear about, like, that core thing… A lot of coaches have told me, like, “Don’t worry about what your thing is.” And I’m like, ” Listen, lady. I’m gonna tell you right now that I have spent $100,000 not knowing what the thing is, and that is not happening any longer.”

That’s not helping. Yeah, yeah. Like, that way of taking ownership of something that’s not working in your business, sometimes [00:15:00] you need to go pay somebody else just to get you that one clear thing so that you can actually go drive it home. Mm-hmm. Happens to be my zone of genius is finding other people’s.

that’s the mirror effect, I call it, because it’s just like sometimes the thing you’re the best at is the thing you also need the most help with. Mm-hmm. And being in denial about that will cost you years and years and years of what you could be doing. Years of your success will be wasted if you don’t go get clear on that one core thing that you can build everything else around.

That’s my opinion about that.

Oh, absolutely. And I love keeping things simple, right? Like, if we can take the complexity away and keep things simple, you’re right. It’s like, are you? what do you wanna do? Who do you wanna help? And then create your offer that lights you up the way that you wanna serve, right?

Traffic, sell- done.

be that easy Traffic is like- Yeah Let’s talk about traffic, because I feel like it’s ironic because you and I met through collaborative events, which is lead gen activities all day long. Like, that’s literally why we do them. Mm-hmm. And also because we get to meet amazing other women who become our biz besties.

And now, you’re in Australia, I’m in Canada, and I know you so well. Like, I could tell you things that I won’t even tell my own husband, because you and I are like kindred spirits. We have [00:16:00] chemistry. You know what I mean? Like, how would we ever have met if we hadn’t been in lead gen activities through collaborative events we went to, right?

Yeah, yeah. We became such good friends. And one day, I can’t wait until we’re, like, sipping champagne on a yacht somewhere together, ’cause it’ll be so fun. I think that the majority of the bottlenecks in our industry, especially for people that are in it for the first five years in online biz, is that there’s really not very many people teaching lead gen.

Yeah.

I come from a commercial sales background. Like, that was my corporate career, and if you’re not out generating leads, you have zero chance at sales. And so everybody talks about visibility and sales- Mm-hmm … but they forget that there’s visibility lead gen in sales. It’s a missing piece to most of the programs that I invested in, and then I realized it, and I was like, “Holy shit, I need traffic.”

That is literally the missing link.

Mm-hmm.

And so you are like a guru when it comes to helping people drive traffic. tell me your philosophy. Tell me, like, the overarching theme of, like, how you view traffic and how you go get it and how you make it simple

Yeah, I love this, ‘ cause you’re right. Like, and I have so many podcast episodes all about this, because people get confused with [00:17:00] visibility and with traffic. They think it’s the same thing, when showing up on Instagram… I’m, gonna talk about Instagram ’cause I’m not on there and I don’t like it, but, you know, let’s use that as the example.

Like, showing up on stories, yes, it’s being visible, but is it actually driving any traffic anywhere? Probably not. So there’s a big misconception that it’s the same thing, and then what happens? Women are being visible, they’re doing all the things, but it’s not actually fucking doing anything for their business because they’re not driving the traffic and the eyeballs to the places that, where they need to actually get traffic to.

So for me, when I’m looking at my business as the example, I just look at, okay, what’s moving the needle? A, it’s traffic. who’s actually landing on my checkout pages today? I have a personal goal that I’m working on at the moment, is I want 100 views on my checkout pages a day. I’m not there yet, but that’s my personal goal that I’m working on.

so it’s, A, am I getting traffic, or B, am I making money? Like, if, an action isn’t connected to one of those two things, it can go in the later pile when I have oodles of time up my sleeve, which probably will never happen, right? That’s the way that I think about my business. And then when we’re thinking about traffic activities, that’s where there’s a [00:18:00] fucking smorgasbord, a buffet to choose from, and it’s figuring out what feels good for you.

And I think where people go wrong is thinking, “I have to do this. Okay, I have to do podcast guesting. I have to do paid ads. I have to do da, da, da, da,” insert the strategy. When no, again, it all works. What is your capacity right now to get more traffic? So for somebody that has a newborn baby that doesn’t have a spare 20 minutes of quiet in their day, podcast guesting’s not a good fit.

Maybe some lead gen ads. If you’ve got $5 a day that you can spare, maybe paying Meta five bucks a day, as much as I don’t like Meta, is a great thing to drive some traffic to your checkout pages, right? Like, it’s all thinking about what’s your capacity. Now pick the traffic strategy, the lead gen strategy that, suits that.

Give it time to work. Don’t assess it after seven days. Like, give it time to work. I believe, like every business owner, every entrepreneur, that should be the first thing you fucking do. Before you do anything else, before you put out any other fires in your business, you should be doing something to get more eyes on what you’re selling

Yeah.

Okay, so this is a perfect conversation to keep rolling with because I [00:19:00] feel like there are so many women out there that feel like the best-kept secret on the internet. They have these amazing offers. They know that they can help people. They’ve helped people. They have testimonials. They have all the street cred.

They have the whatever you wanna call it, qualifications, experience, you could have the best offer in the world and do the best in your spaces, and if nobody knows about you, then you’re still screwed with no sales.

So give me your top five favorite traffic sources or, strategies that you like to use for or recommend to women who are, like, selling coaching offers, let’s just say.

Yeah, yeah. I love this. So for me, it always leads back to my email list, right? ‘Cause I can send an email at any time of the day, and I can drive traffic with my email list, sending them to a checkout page.

So it always leads back to an email list that I own.

I wanna stop you for one sec because when I have hosted you on my collaborative events, your email list, the amount of traffic that you drive, I just wanna give you some props here and a fricking shout-out because you drive more traffic with one email from your list than most seven-figure entrepreneurs that I have hosted.

Like, that’s bananas ’cause those girls have ridiculously huge lists.

[00:20:00] And the fact that your list is so engaged and so targeted, and they trust you, and they love you, and they absolutely go check out anything that you recommend is, like, kudos to you. Like, what an amazing asset, but also community that you built.

I just wanted to stop and say, like, “Oh, my God, I’ve never seen anyone drive traffic from one email like Kylie.” She has the power of moving people, and that’s true traffic, not just list build, true community building in a space like an email list. Okay, keep going. Oh,

thank you. I love that. Again, I think it’s because I do what I teach, right? And I teach relationship building, so it’s not just a list. know these people. They know me, and it’s at scale, which then makes it really powerful. So thank you for sharing that. I love that.

Yeah.

So yeah, always leads back to the email list. so again, capacity. So for me right now, I don’t do that much podcast guesting, because I’ve got two crazy kids, and it’s very rare to have quiet like this unless they’re at school. So hosting h- pop-up audio summits, really low lift. Think about private podcast, five to seven speakers, almost no editing, recording them [00:21:00] in Voxer behind- Really? yeah. Download them from Voxer, chuck them together.

Oh my gosh.

And that’s pretty much done. I just had one… There’s one going at the moment about audience growth.

It finishes at the end of the week that we’re recording this. I’ve had 300 and o- 350 odd people sign up for it. Most of them are new to my list. I only promoted it to my list once, ’cause the whole reason about doing this is more for list growth than anything else. I’m doing them monthly for the rest of the year.

So my goal is to get closer to 10K on my list. I’m at, like, five and a half now, so doubling it really. But doing them monthly, On top of that, I’m in a few bundles. People have reached out and there’s a few bundles going on where I put in a digital product. It’s for free in the bundle. that drives a fair bit of traffic to my list. I’ve got a few freebie swaps I’m doing, which again, with, you know, people like you, it feels really good, right?

Like, y- it’s with your friends in the space. They share my freebie, I share theirs. the key with all of this, as you hear me talking about the collaborative stuff, the key is not to bite off too much, right? I have mapped out my month. I know what week I’m doing my own pop-up thing, so I wouldn’t jam [00:22:00] too much into that week, ’cause I wanna make sure that I’m looking after my list.

Like, that relationship comes first. How would they feel getting these emails? How’s that cadence? Is it too much? Is it not enough? Like, map it all out first, make sure I’m looking after them. I’ve also got, like, sales promos in there, right? So it’s like, okay, if I’m selling this week, let’s reward them for sticking around at the end of the sale.

Like, I love doing that, It could be a sponsored email or a freebie, somebody else’s, but it’s, like, fucking full of value that I know they’re gonna love. So, “Hey, here’s a gift for you,” whilst I’m still then fulfilling my requirement to somebody else, the promise I’ve kept to somebody else to promote their thing.

it’s like mapping it out- Making sure that you’re looking after the list, first and foremost. But yeah, a lot of it’s collaborative stuff. I am doing, some $5… Well, I’ve just increased it to 10 bucks a day, like lead gen ads for this event. So I’m just using Facebook forms for that, think I’m getting about $2.70 a lead or something like that at the moment. you know, again, just playing. Just, trying, playing, seeing what’s working,

You got back, you got back on your ads account?

Yes. Fucking hell. Again, this is why I hate Meta. So this is a whole… I need to do a podcast episode on this, ’cause I [00:23:00] haven’t yet.

But

yeah, I, did get an ads account back. Thanks, Meta. Anyway,

I’m laughing because remember I was telling you on my way back from summer holidays, I knew I was gonna go through, like, a dead zone in the cell phone service for, like, four hours, so I downloaded a whole bunch of your podcast episodes ’cause I was like, ” I feel like I’m talking to you when I’m listening to your podcast.” So I was just like, “Oh my gosh, I’m dying to know what happened with the Meta account.” So for any of you listening, Kylie started running ads ‘ cause she’s literally driving traffic to a completely different, not a high-ticket offer anymore.

She’s building a Skool community, and she’s got a whole bunch of digital products, courses, et cetera, that are super helpful for her audience. And she started running ads, and they were literally making money within the first day, and she was like, “What?” And it was going so well, and then how long did you get?

Like 10 days, and then it

was like, “Er?” Not, not even. It you know, I was like three or four days in, three-point-something ROAS. Like, I was making money. I was like, “Oh my gosh, this works. This is true.” Like, “I’ve turned on the fucking tap and this is amazing.”

Probably why they thought you were a scammer. Like, “What’s going on with

this?” No, and then so, okay, so what happened just in a short little nutshell for anyone now that everyone’s probably curious. Meta has the AI, right? [00:24:00] That reviews your ads as you’re creating new ad copy and new ad creatives And so I was creating these ads, and the AI kept rejecting them, but there was nothing wrong with them. So I’d put them back through to be reviewed, and then they’d be like, “Oh yeah, it’s fine.” But because I did that multiple times in a short little window, they were like, “Huh, this girl’s sus. She’s, she’s trying to put things through.”

Even though the ads were fucking fine, the AI had already flagged it once. So because of that, they just completely took down the ads account, It’s so funny because normally, normally I just pivot a strategy, right? Be like, “Oh well, fuck you. I’ll just go and do something else.” but I think because I felt so much success so quickly, I was really attached to it and I was like, “No, this can’t happen yet.” I, I like cracked it. So I didn’t get it back. I did speak to a few Meta reps. They admitted like, “Yeah, it’s the AI, but once this has happened, once it’s made a call like this and, and restricted the account, we can’t overturn it.”

Like, it’s final. luckily, being the many-gen multi-passionate person that I am, I had actually started a different Facebook business manager under my podcast, the old podcast name, [00:25:00] so like we’re talking back in 2023 or something, under This Mama Means Business, and that had an ads account just empty sitting there.

So I think I’d thought about running ads to my podcast back then and never done it. But because of that, I could then go in, use that ads account, and I, like, just transferred my pixel across, so it’s still got the learning, which was great. So now I can get back up and running. But oh.

And are they working?

Are they going? Like…

Yeah. Well, yes and no. So I did try some sales ads last week. Couldn’t crack it though. It was, j- just under breaking even, so I think I spent, I don’t know, I think I spent, like, 700 bucks, and I made, like, 600 back or something. So, like, I’m not mad about it, ’cause I’m like, it’s, you know, I paid 100 bucks to learn.

That’s cool.

I need to massage it and see. Plus

those people will end up in your ecosystem buying more. It’s just- Yeah … when you have such a strong start though, it’s just like, come on.

know. What? It was

heartbreaking. It was

heartbreaking.

I’ve always relied on collabs and, like, free, lead gen strategies without paid ads, and I think that is absolutely fine for the start. Like, if somebody’s listening going like, “Oh my [00:26:00] God, I never wanna do ads, it sounds like a nightmare,” like, you don’t have to. Like, I am now five, six years into this, and I’m only just starting to play with ads.

So please know you don’t need to do paid ads. it’s just something that I’m playing with.

Yeah, and I think also you kinda have like, so much data on how people move and how people buy and how people come into spaces and funnels and things like that. And you wanna amplify that.

and if you’re trying to scale, which you totally can with your digital products, it’s just like why wouldn’t you try that at that point? But you already know that you have that desire in that audience. Like, it’s not like this is your first day in business, and you’re like, “You know, I think I’ll just pay to see if this’ll work.”

Like…

Yeah. Um- Which would be an expensive lesson, right? Like, I think once you’re at a place- Yeah … where you know something converts and you have it pretty much, fine-tuned, then yeah, like getting cold traffic in front of it is the best, thing to amplify and to make that bigger.

it’s also a really good lesson because, like, I think looking at the data, I was surprised that that worked so well at the start because I’d never sold to cold traffic before. I’d only ever sold to my email list that are really warm and that know me, right? So that was a really good lesson to look at.

And even you know, last week [00:27:00] when I lost 100 bucks, I was like, “Oh, this is interesting, so I, I might need to tweak the copy for a cold audience. I might need to tweak this for a cold audience. how can I build more trust when they don’t know me?” It’s just a completely different kind of ballgame, I think.

Just interesting.

But- I think the other thing about that is, like, now you just know that you can look at it as data and start tweaking one thing at a time instead of taking it personally.

That’s another thing that happens to all of us. I mean, if you feel like you’ve run a whole bunch of ads…

Oh, my gosh, I spent thousands of dollars on ads when I was in network marketing. So the way I got into the online space was I came out of my corporate career where I was making six figures, and I launched into network marketing. And I did two big network marketing companies, and the second one was essential oils, and I can’t tell you how many thousands of dollars I spent Like, I ran ads to get people to come in for samples. So I would, like, interview them, get an intake form, what are they struggling with, and then I would mail them out in Canada and the States. I can’t even tell you how much money that cost me. After like three months, I was like, “Did I just spend $5,000 and I think I sold one or two people something out of all that work?”

Like, it was hours. It [00:28:00] was thousands of dollars in ads. I mean, I know how to run ads, I’ve taken three courses now on how to run Facebook ads, and I can do it really well, but it was just like how much money I burned through to get… I mean, I should’ve just walked down to my neighbor and asked if they wanted a bottle of lavender.

It would’ve saved me $5,000. You know what I mean?

But again, we can’t know what we don’t know, right? Like, back then when we were getting started, I think we’ve all made, made those mistakes where it’s, like, just cost us time, money, or both, and it’s like- Learning the hard way a little bit.

I think we all, we all have walked through that some degree, yeah.

That was also a good lesson to learn on when there’s haters in the comments, ’cause people were talking about how I was a snake oil dealer and all this crazy stuff. And I was just like, ” Ah.” I was, like, so heartbroken over these random strangers calling me a scam artist.

And then somebody in one of those free groups where they do free samples all the time, said- Oh … that I was offering free samples but then expecting them to buy something afterwards. And then I had thousands of people, like, trolling my ads. But now I’m like, “I don’t give a shit that’s ’cause I walked through it already.

see, I would still struggle. I still take things too personally. Oh. Like, I, [00:29:00] must admit. Like, even, stuff that I know better. So, like, if somebody unsubscribes from my list They’ve been there for years and I kinda feel like I know them a little bit, like, I’ll be like, ” Oh, that hurts a bit.”

And who knows? Like, who knows? We don’t know anything. Like, it’s fine. And I know logically, oh, it’s great. Something might’ve changed. awesome. Like, we wanna keep our list full of people that wanna be there. Like, it’s all good. I don’t hold it against them, but it hurts my heart a little bit still. Like, I’m- Aw … I’m still exhausted with that kind of stuff.

I don’t look at the unsubscribe list at all.

I mean, I see the number, but I don’t ever go in and see who it was ’cause I don’t… It doesn’t bother me at all.

Well, do you know Flodesk now? So I moved from Kit to Flodesk. it shows it right at the top. So I can’t avoid it. I never used to look either, but now I can’t avoid it.

I love to pick your brain on, like, what’s Kylie up to? What is your vision? Because I know you’ve had a big pivot, And I know that you’re already seeing success, and I know that your community is already building, and I know that you’re seeing exactly who’s coming in and what they need and all the things.

So, like, where are you headed in the next couple years?

Do you know what? I kinda wanna be… This is a big thing to say, but you know Maria Wendt?

Mm-hmm.

I wanna be the Maria Wendt of, like, email [00:30:00] marketing and, collaborative growth, right? Like, I feel like for me, I just wanna help more and more and more and more and more women do what I’ve done with their email, ’cause I know the security it can bring and, and I know that it’s the missing piece for, majority, and I know that I’m really good at teaching it really simply. So I just see myself having the digital shop, scaling, whether it’s ads, whether it’s Meta or YouTube or Google or who- whatever, but, like, scaling the audience so I can reach more and more women, and having the community piece as well alongside that for, for women to connect.

I think I’ve spent, you know, I spent so many years lonely. E- even now, like where we live, I don’t have a lot of local friends, things like that, so it’s like, how can I make sure that there’s that community and that connection that I’m such a big believer in and that’s so important for all of us? At the same time, let’s help as many women as I possibly can build their email list in a way that feels good for them so they can live a flexible life that lights them the fuck up, that makes them a lot of money.

I wanna get more money in hands of good women, So that’s what I see. Like, I, yeah, in the next few years, I just want that to be an empire. I want it to be as big as I can [00:31:00] fucking get it. and let’s go. Let’s see, right? and in a way that feels good for me. Do you know, hilariously, I turned down a speaking opportunity on stage, which was a big call to make, a couple months ago.

My old business coach is running a women’s conference here in Australia, and I actually turned down a speaking spot because it didn’t feel aligned. And I cannot tell you how good that felt to, like, stand in what was right for me, even though they didn’t understand. They accepted it, but, like, they didn’t…

No one’s ever said no, I don’t think. It’s not really a done thing. I’m all about spending more time to make sure that I’m building it in a way that lights me up, and being okay not doing it the popular way

Yeah, I love that.

I think more women need to do that.

The community piece is so big because I think that when we’re ambitious moms, it’s not exactly the conversation that’s being had on the, the sidelines at the soccer game or at the rink, at the hockey rink, or at the basketball court, or at the whatever.

Like, it’s all small talk. It’s all sports. it’s a different thing and when you’re… Like we said earlier, it’s like if you’re not creating, if you’re not building, if you’re not expanding, you’re, you feel like you’re dying, and I think [00:32:00] that happens when we don’t have community as ambitious souls, I guess.

Yeah …

I think it’s so important for people to find community and find, biz besties because- I love to be able to just, like, jump into Voxer and chat I mean, you’re in Australia. One of my good friends, Joanne, is in Ireland.

I have all these women that I’ve connected with over the years you have that true chemistry and you care about each other. Mm. And you wanna bounce ideas off of each other, and sometimes you just need a you know, another pair of eyes on it, or you just need somebody to call you out on something, you know, or you just wanna vent, or you just wanna whatever.

Yeah. Or, hey, how can I serve you today? Like, what’s happening in your world? un- until you start to build that, it is a lonely sport,

Yeah. I love that, and I do think I’m good at creating those spaces.

Like, I love creating community. but I think for anyone listening that doesn’t have that yet, like, I love the relationship we have, and I think that for anyone that’s craving that, it all, starts with that one step, right? Get into a community. Start having conversation. I think when you’re in the right space, just don’t be afraid to be vulnerable, be real.

Tell it how it is. Like, I’m sure some of our… I would love to know what some of our first conversations were, but I’m sure it was probably me swearing- Oh … about children and, like… You know? Like, back [00:33:00] then I had, I had my membership with, like, 250 members, but I was almost burnt out.

I remember having conversations with you then going like, “Fuck, what am I doing? Like, I don’t even know What, what’s next?” Like, again, like, let’s do life together because it’s what we all need.

Well, and how cool is it that we, in 30 years, will be able to look back and be like, “Remember when I was doing this?

Remember when I did this? Remember when I was thinking this?” Like, and it’s-

Yeah …

you have to have that because you can’t always tell your spouse. A lot of our spouses are, like, amazing and supportive in different ways, but, like, they don’t necessarily get it. And for me, Ah, I just need the girls.

Like, I need the biz besties.” And so, yeah.

Yeah. Well,

thank

you. I think entrepreneur friends are different too. when I was a wedding photographer, I’d go to weddings and they’d have, like, high school friends that they’d been friends with since grade 12 or whatever. and I always felt really- I don’t know, like really disappointed that I don’t have that.

Like, I grew up in a country town. I left after my first marriage, and the cult thing and all of that history, I like left. Met Nick, obviously, became self-employed, and then those friendships are like- I, I wouldn’t have anything in common with those women anymore. But I always felt kind of [00:34:00] sad that I’d never had those friends.

But now I can’t imagine having friends just because we’ve went to high school together. Like, I think entrepreneur friends are so different and needed no one else knows what this journey is like apart from the other women doing it too.

Well, and earlier you asked me what you would say to somebody, or what I would say to somebody who doesn’t feel like they’re, like they’ve invested in something, they’re not getting anywhere.

Look around at who else is in there, because somebody else is similar to you and came in on that messaging, and you might find one of your lifelong biz besties in there, and that would be a- 100% worth the investment right there, if you found one of your people. And so sometimes you’re not getting the, the thing that you necessarily bargained for or bought, but sometimes you’re getting something even better.

Mm. Oh, I love that. Tell me your vision for the next.

Well, since I’m now sleeping through the night finally, after my fourth kid came … She’s three and a half, and she still comes in. I just, I was so strict on the boys, three boys, about sleeping and never coming into our bed at night, and I don’t know if I just gave up or what happened with this girl, but, like, she’s running the roost around here, and it’s [00:35:00] driving me crazy.

Anyways, now that I mostly sleep through the night, I feel like I can really run, I call it, like, psycho season loading, dot, dot, dot. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. With, like, the loading bar going across. Because I have wanted to create this massive empire around what lights me up, which is my fire, for so long, and the thing I’m most passionate about is women ditching the corporate grind to jump into the online space and build something that actually lights them on fire, that actually they get pinch me moments.

They can’t believe they’re getting paid this much to do something they love this much, and, like, they still have time for their life. That’s literally my mission. it’s interesting because right now I have this kind of disjointed pieces in my business, and I have built so many different sections of it over time.

and so I guess my goal in the next few years is, like, how do I bring it all together in an ecosystem that feeds itself? Because I have all these amazing courses that I created for women who are, like, literally just thinking about leaving corporate. it’s called an Exit Strategy Masterclass, and it just, like, walks you through the stuff that’s gonna need to happen in your head.

Everybody jumps to, like, what kind of business do I need to build? And I’m like, [00:36:00] just a second. Back it up for a sec. Here’s what you actually need to do, in my experience.

Mm-hmm.

Like, if you’re coming out of a successful six-figure career and you know you wanna fricking do something, you know you’re made for more, that woman needs to come in point.

And then she can go into low-ticket courses- Mm … to create her first six-figure idea. Actually, after this I’m gonna, I’m gonna pick your brain about how I could turn one of my courses into a, like a bot or whatever you create. And I know that this is so powerful, and then I can run ads to it. It’ll be like, “If you don’t know your, idea for your business but you know that you’re meant for more and you wanna do something bigger and you’re gonna jump into this space, then this is what you need.”

And I can sell it for seven bucks if I want to or whatever. But almost every woman I know, even the ones who are five years in, most of the time don’t actually know the basics ’cause we glossed over it, thought we’d figure it out- Right … and then spent $100,000 trying to scale business that we didn’t have the foundation built first.

Mm-hmm.

So because I failed my way through all of those things, I know how to now say, “No, make sure you nail this first.” I’ve always felt like those things were kind of more for the beginner, whereas my signature program is more for the, you’ve been at this for three to five years, you already know a lot of strategy, and I need to find a [00:37:00] little middle ground there between the beginners.

Like, I need a bridge. Mm-hmm. So my goal is to teach 1,000 women in the next couple years how to ditch the corporate career that is absolutely draining the shit out of them.

Mm-hmm.

They know they’re meant for more, they, they know they’re meant for bigger, and they wanna go and create their own business, and that’s my goal is literally to help 1,000 women do that- I still don’t know exactly how that’s all gonna play out, but I know that momentum no matter what is my, little phrase that I tell myself every day. I’m also now brainwashing myself into thinking that everything I do makes me money.

Oh, I love that. And ’cause, you know, like, once these women come in through the masterclass on, on that end, they’re gonna tell you what they need next. I also think, like, so often we think we need to have everything worked out, right?

That we need to have the offer letter looking so polished and so perfect and making so much sense, when actually if we can just start and get people in that, that first step, they’re gonna then tell us what they need, then we just make that, and then it leads there, right? It leads to where we want them to go.

I love that. I love, like, okay, momentum, action, let’s just get started.

I think too for somebody that’s listening that [00:38:00] has felt like they’ve been doing like p- a start stop, start stop, start stop forever-

I can relate to that so much because that is my story.

I’ve literally been in, let’s call it in the online space for 10, but coaching for five but at the end of the day, like if you feel like you’ve stopped, started, and you’re not where you wanna be, it’s okay because you still have the opportunity that everything could change in an instant, especially if you’ve continued to be stubborn enough to stay the course.

that stubbornness does actually pay off. And this is another thing that I wanna really validate for anybody else out there that’s feeling like this right now. You’re gonna have people in your life, might be your husband, might be people, you know, in your immediate family, whatever, that are gonna be like, “How much longer are you gonna do this not making any real money?”

Mm-hmm. That is something that happened to me, and it rocked me for a long time, and now I’ve shifted into, ” I don’t give a shit what you think.” I don’t say this to their face. But honestly, I’ve put up this boundary of just being like, “You can’t shake me.”

Mm. “

You’ve shaken me for too long. I’ve shaken myself.

We’re done shaking in our boots here.” Mm-hmm. I know that I have something incredible to sell. I know that I have insane impact to make in the world. It’s [00:39:00] okay that I didn’t know how to bring it all together. It’s okay that I didn’t know how to do it all. You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. I’ve walked through a lot of hard in my life in the last five years with, Rhett having cancer and treatments and all the things, and I never wanted that to be an excuse, but at the same time, that was my reality. And so now it just feels like the right time, and everything already feels like it’s coming together, and I’m already making more money, and I’m already in momentum, and I’m already more sure about myself than I ever have been.

And so if you are at a place right now where you’re still feeling a little lost, stay the fucking course. Hire somebody for the small pieces that you need if you need them, even if you’re in big programs. Get clear on what you need to do because I would say things If I knew what to do, I’d be doing them right now.

I wish somebody would just tell me what to do,” even though I’m a don’t tell me what to do kind of a person, and, ” I don’t even know what I’m selling anymore. I don’t even know what I’m good at. I don’t even know what it is that I do.” And that was after like eight years in this space. You know what I mean?

Like- Mm … so don’t feel like you’re the only one that doesn’t fucking have it all figured out. Stay in it. Stay in the fight. Keep going. You will get there. I know it. [00:40:00] I have never lost belief that I will be a seven-figure earner, and despite what everybody else around me thinks or may have seen or may perceive, I don’t give a shit, ’cause I know what’s meant for me.

And that’s a conversation that you know in your heart whether you’re meant for something that big or not, and nobody else can ever take that away from you. And if it’s on your heart, it’s meant for you.

Mm …

I just wanna say that, because too many times people gloss over the reality of the struggle that they actually have had on their journey, and I don’t, I don’t wanna do that.

Yeah. And ’cause it can all change so quickly, right? Like, I think that the only thing… What is that, like, famous saying, right? Like, the only thing that, is different from a winner and a loser is not giving up, right? Like, it’s just literally like you said, staying the course, not giving up, and having faith that what is meant for you will come in the right timing.

Yeah, it might not be on our timing, and we’d like it a lot, lot fucking quicker, but it will happen when it’s meant to. And the only way that’s gonna happen is if we don’t remove ourselves, if we don’t actually step away.

it can just all change so quickly.

Like, you know, all it takes is a couple little [00:41:00] yeses coming back all at once, and it can blow the roof off the income that you’ve had so far, that blew my mind when I started to go into high-ticket, right? ‘ I joined a mastermind, it was incredible. the guy that ran it, I- he, he had a way of thinking about strategies that I’d never even thought about before, or like some real cool twists, and I was like, “Oh my gosh, amazing.”

joined this mastermind, and then, he kind of helped me come up with the way that I was running events leading into my high-ticket, right? Like, making sure they were small and curated and, kind of making sure the right people were in the room before the event. I started then selling on the back end of that, and because I’d put in so much thought and intention and I tried something completely new and it, and it worked, then I was getting multiple people signing up for this high-ticket mastermind all in one launch, and that had never happened before.

I was like, “Holy shit.” Like, that’s, that’s a 30, $40,000 launch just because I had enough people saying yes at the same time instead of spreading it out over 12 months, right? Like, it was just like this really condensed time period, and it just really showed me what was possible when you just get enough yeses all at once.

And so, like, that can happen so quickly. Not saying you need to do high-ticket or you need to do [00:42:00] whatever, but, like, just knowing the power of what can happen, I think can be something to hang on to while you’re staying the course as well.

I agree. It’s almost like you need one big win, Even if you have a low-ticket offer and you got 10 people that signed up for it and it’s only 100 bucks per person- that’s still $1,000 that just came to you from one little thing that you did.

Yeah.

I think this is a perfect place to, to wrap this up Mara, ’cause I think there’s been so many gold nuggets. So for anyone listening that wants to connect with you, where should we send them? What’s the best first step for them?

Well, I’m on most hated by Kylie Instagram.

I love that.

Instagram or Facebook is perfect. My Ambitious AF podcast is on, you know, Spotify and Apple, and I mean, jump into my DMs, come say hello. I would love to know that you came from Kylie’s podcast, or if you’re listening on mine, come say hello to me there too. And, y- if you feel like, “Oh my gosh, I don’t even know where to start.

I don’t know what to do,” or, “I’ve even been at this for a while, and I still feel like I’ve lost my spark,” like what I was just talking about, where sometimes you’re like, “I don’t even know what I do or what I even sell anymore,” hit me in [00:43:00] my DMs or go to my website and find the Find Your Fire freebie.

Like, it is literally the most powerful exercise. It will change your life. I didn’t even talk about it today, but it changed mine completely, and it’s all about figuring out what it is that you want instead of what you think you should want or do or be. And when you’re making decisions in your business, it helps so freaking much.

So whether you’re just, you know, thinking of leaving corporate or if you’ve been at this for a while, and you’re just like, “Oh my gosh, I still feel like I’m spinning. I don’t really have the clarity. I don’t know what I’m doing,” go listen to that first, jump into my DMs and tell me where you’re at, and I love to voice note back and forth in the DMs and just help people have those breakthroughs.

So don’t be shy.

yeah, and then if anybody is listening and that, traffic piece really spoke to them, they just know that they need more eyes, please jump over to my website, kyliekelly.com. my freebie’s there, which is Your Next 1,000 Subscribers guide with a personalized quiz that actually pinpoints the right strategy for your business and for you.

Like we talked about, it all works. Let’s find the one that works for you. so that’ll be the best place to start, which is just but all the links will be in the show notes. But Mara, this was so fun.

We only got interrupted a few times by the [00:44:00] kids.

We did so good.

We did so good.

Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Email Growth Show. I hope you found valuable insights into the next steps you can take to grow your email list and boost your business without relying on social media or paid ads. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review the show and share it with others.

Your feedback helps me reach more female entrepreneurs just like you who are ready to say goodbye to social media and leverage email marketing to grow their business and make a bigger impact. Thank you so much for listening, and I’ll see you in the next episode.